Tulips

//​​​Tess of the D'Urbervilles//

// Jill: (Questions are applicable to content through phase 2 *up to page 100) NOTE: SPOILER ALERT! Do not read the questions below if you have not finished the reading through phase 2. It will give material away!

1. On page 99 Hardy states, "Almost at a leap Tess thus changed from a simple girl to complex woman. Symbols of reflectiveness passed into her face, and a note of tragedy at times into her voice..." Do you believe (at least in the Tess which phase 2 introduced) that there has been this kind of transformation?

2. Do you feel that the act of Tess naming her child Sorrow is as transparent as it seems? (i.e. what do you feel is her motive for doing so? obvious or symbolic?) Do you have any thoughts on why Hardy wrote the novel such that the child died? (Again, symbolism for "Sorrow" leaving, or yet as another tragedy for Tess to suffer?) //

Hi, so this is Victoria. It's interesting that you ask that question, Jill because while reading I thought that Tess was very ambivalent towards her child. She "dangled it with a gloomy indifference that was almost dislike; then all of a sudden she fell to violently kissing it" (90). So I think Tess was straight forward when she named her dead child Sorrow. As for Hardy's motive in killing the baby, I thought that it was so Tess could perform the baptism. The scene was written so Tess appeared almost holy. " The ecstasy of faith almost apotheosized her; it set upon her face a glowing irradiation" (95). Baptism is the cleansing of the original sin. So I kind of thought that while Tess was purifying her child, she was really ridding herself of her "sin" so that she could begin anew.


 * (Erica) I agree with Victoria that Tess definitely displays feelings of ambivalence towards her child. I would, however, go on to say that Tess' christening her baby 'Sorrow' is a transparent symbolic maneuver on the part of Hardy's. Like Victoria I agree that ** **he uses the baby's death to represent the "sorrow" leaving in Tess and to usher her into a stage of renewal. By ridding her of the baby, Hardy leaves Tess literally and metaphorically unencumbered by sorrow, allowing her to feel hopeful by the end of the chapter. This is illustrated by the last few lines: "...And some spirit within her rose automatically as the sap in the twigs. It was unexpected youth, surging up anew after its temporary check, and bringing with it hope, and the invincible instinct towards self-delight." (p. 100) Thus, with the death of the baby, Tess has no tangible reminder of her "sin," and is able to return to a state that if not quite innocent, is at least more youth-like.**

(Tally): Victoria, I would disagree that Tess was ambivalent towards her child. I think Sorrow represented many of the things that Tess regretted and wished had not happened, so I think that while it was still in the womb perhaps she hated him, but by the time he came out, her innate motherhood had come through as well as her goodness and she couldn't bring herself to dislike him. On page 90, a woman watching Tess feed him says, "She's fond of that there child, though she mid pretend not to be...". However, I thought your point about how Tess needed to baptize the child and look holy (which is another thing that I think shows that she loves him quite a lot) was a good point which I really hadn't thought of. I had just thought that Sorrow had died (literally and figuratively) so that it could show that Tess was completely putting Alec and that experience behind her and starting anew with no ties to the past.

(JILL) I kind of agree with all of you. Victoria, I completely agree that there seemed to be some strange sense of indifference towards the child at some points. I may be getting picky about the details but when Hardy describes the prospect of the christening, he said the following: "Tess, who mused on the christening a good deal, wondered doctrinally sufficient to secure a Christian burial for the child." I think that the use of diction here really conveyed that sense of indifference, especially the word "muse". Maybe I'm overthinking it, but the word muse doesn't really sound all that intense to me, it sounds like someone musing about fairly inconsequential, not the fate of her child which she is, in fact, considering. It seemed a little emotionless at times, but I do agree Tally, that she definitely did care for the child which we can see by her desire to christen the child, and covering it with kisses at various points in the book. Perhaps Hardy didn't intend to come off to the reader the way that he did (especially if we had such different reactions) but for the record Victoria, I do see your point! And I totally agree about the symbolism for "sorrow" leaving and having a fresh start - I was sort of thinking this as I read but I wasn't sure if this was reading too far into the novel. I think all of your points make sense though, and confirm my belief that this was absolutely intentional.

Tally:

1. On page 87, Hardy begins to describe the scene in which Tess is farming. In it, he states, "Along one side of the field the whole wain went, the arms of the mechanical reaper revolving slowly, till it passed down the hill quite out of sight. In a minute it came up on the other side of the field at the same equable pace; the glistening brass star in the forehead of the fore horse catching the eye as it rose into view over the stubble..." Although Hardy probably meant for this scene to be descriptive of hard work and perhaps even somewhat technologically advanced with the "red machine," What other parts of the book do you think we view differently because we are in a drastically different time period than when the book was written? What parts of the book do we lose (ie, I think we view Tess much more cynically than many readers of the past might, and in some parts I think that could hinder our perception of the book as a whole)? Is there anything we gain by living in today's world and looking back into Hardy's/Tess'?

2. On page 91, Tess/Hardy muses about why Tess has gotten over her melancholy and is out in the real world: "The familiar surroundings had not darkened because of her grief, nor sickened because of her pain... to all humankind besides Tess was only a passing thought... Alone in a desert island would she have been wretched at what had happened to her? Not greatly." Was this "humbling" needed in order for Tess to be able to go on in life without being constantly miserable? Do you think her (for lack of a better term) self-centeredness which seems apparent in this passage makes her more human, or simply reveals her as a flawed character whose luck and good looks allowed her to briefly fly above the rest of the characters, and only an experience like hers would bring her down?


 * Erica**

Do you believe this is true? Although Tess has lost her chastity, has she lost her innocence? Are the two one and the same? Do you believe that innocence is something she can ever truly regain, or has her experience with Alec irrevocably tainted her deeper nature? Taking note of this quote within context of the section, to what extent is Tess’ isolation self-imposed and how much of it has been inflicted upon her by society? Is she a tragic figure dealt a bad hand or has she brought some of her sorrow upon herself? I figured it would be easier to answer the questions here... If we each use a different color maybe we can keep the people and the questions straight (this is Tally): Erica, I found this to be a very interesting part of the book as well (my second question is actually somewhat similar, although with a different take on it). I was surprised at how self-imposed Tess' isolation seemed to be. Unlike in the Scarlet Letter, where the woman is completely isolated by society, Tess seems to entirely isolate herself from society. Since she punishes herself for her "Guilt" in the "haunts of innocence," she perceives herself as apart even though Nature cares not at all who she is or what she is doing (see Victoria's quote from page 86 in her second question). I felt that almost none of her exile had been inflicted on her by society: on page 90, Hardy says that "It was a thousand pities, indeed; it was impossible for even an enemy to feel otherwise on looking at Tess as she sat there". Although she was dealt a bad hand and in some cases I think can be viewed upon as a tragic figure because of her lamentable loss of innocence and virginity, I think it is probably more indicative of her character to look at how she handles this tragic hand. She is not, as I would have originally suspected, incredibly virtuous in the face of this misfortune, but instead moping and miserable and generally feeling sorry for herself, thereby exacerbating her sorrow. However, I do think she is probably meant to be seen as a tragic figure because right as she decides to go out and work in the fields and immerse herself in society, her child dies, which is just one more blow.
 * I.** On page 99 Tess asks herself, “Was once lost always lost really true of chastity?”
 * II.** “By this encompassment…It was they that were out of harmony with the actual world, not she. Walking among the sleeping birds in the hedges, watching the skipping rabbits on a moonlit warren, or standing under a pheasant-laden bough, she looked upon herself as a figure of Guilt intruding into the haunts of Innocence.” (p. 85-86)

** Sorry, I didn't realize Tally had already started a discussion. I kind of disagree with Tally because I think that society plays a role in her isolation. Because it was society that taught Tess to feel the "guilt" that isolates her from everyone. On page 92 it says "Like all village girls she was well grounded in the Hoy Scriptures and had durifully studied the histories of Aholah and Ahobilah, and knew the inferences to be drawn there from." It's true that the people of Marlott aren't being harsh on Tess, but still they are talking and pitying Tess, both of which Tess wants to escape. Even her own family is not on her side, which further isolates her. Her father views her as an embarassment for what happened to her. You are right Tally, that Tess's reaction to her rape does indicate her character. But to me, I see Tess as someone unwilling and unable to stand up to the whole village and what they preach. It's not so much that she's wallowing, as she is hiding because society tells her being a un-married mother is wrong and she is docile enough to just believe it unquestioningly. ** (Erica) I agree with both your assertions to some extent, with the addition that I think the views of Tess' society and her religion only serve to compound the guilt that Tess' own nature compels her to feel. I believe that while, rationally, she recognizes that the rape was not her fault, society has taught her that the woman is to blame in these situations, and perhaps a small part of her feels that she may have unconsciously provoked Alec as well. ** **I disagree, Tally, that Tess' isolation from society is completely self-imposed, for as Victoria said, Tess is a product of a society that has taught her that to be an unmarried mother is sinful. If anything, Tess herself asserts that society is mostly to blame for her misery, as evidenced by your quote. ["Alone in a desert island would she be wretched at what had happened to her? Not greatly." (p. 91)]** **However that being said I disagree, Victoria, with your conception of Tess as a docile doormat. While I don't think that the people of Marlott are outright persecuting Tess, they are definitely disapproving, to the point where she feels she can't even attend to church anymore. ["The people who had turned their heads turned them again as the service proceeded; and at last observing her they whispered to each other. She knew what their whispers were about, grew sick at heart, and felt that she could come to church no more." (p. 84-85)] In her (characteristic, I think) martyr-like way Tess is standing up to the village by refusing to give in to societal pressure and marry a man that she loathes for the sake of her reputation and that of her baby's.**

You guys have definitely turned me around on this front! I didn't see before how society compelled Tess to feel the way she did about herself and about the rape, and how their expectations showed her that she should feel guilty and partially responsible for it. However, I would still disagree that "society is mostly to blame for her misery", as you said, Erica. The first quote, about "alone on a desert island...", I had actually interpreted more as Tess wallowing in her despair because there were other people around to do her work for her and see her wallow, as opposed to them actually making her despair (also, you're more likely to be stuck in self-pity if you can compare yourself to others and envy them in their innocence, even if they're not trying to hurt you in any way), although I can see your point about that quote. However, earlier in the chapter, Hardy says she was very far from being "in love with her own ruin" (83), so I suppose he doesn't see Tess in this way. I didn't interpret the people of Marlott to be as disapproving as they could have been, though, and I almost felt they pitied her in many ways. The Vicar breaks many rules to allow the baby to even be buried with rites at all, and although the townspeople might have whispered at first when she came to church (and, honestly, who wouldn't?) they seemed to look upon her with genuine pity later when she was helping to reap the fields, so I felt that if she desired to enter into society again and be a strong woman (which, Victoria, I think you may be right that she is " ** unwilling and unable to stand up to the whole village and what they preach") ** that she could and that her society truly is a forgiving one if she allows it to be.

JILL: I kind of agree with Tally - though I think everyone makes a really compelling argument. I think that the way the townspeople treated her in the field was really not all that isolating. It would definitely have been a difficult position to be placed in, with a baby out of wedlock at the time this book is written, but I think on the whole she really imposed her own isolation. When the workers took a lunch break in the field Tess is described thus: "She sat down at the end of the shock, her face turned away somewhat from her companions. When she had deposited herself a man in a rabbit skin cap with a red handkerchief tucked into his belt, held the cup of ale over the top of the shock for her to drink. She did not accept his offer." In this way, I feel that she may have been placed in a hard situation with her child at the time she lived, but I don't think she really took any opportunities to help herself out and reach out of her isolation when someone approached her. I think all of her trouble really stemmed from being such an idealist - she killed Prince and she honestly thought she needed to fix the problem, or she thought that Alec would not be as bad as he seemed, and everything sort of started going horribly wrong, so I think it was sort of her own depression which gave birth to her self imposed isolation. I'm not saying that she was wrong to do so, or that it was somewhat her fault. I think it was completely legitimate that she chose to do so, but I don't think that the origin is completely societally based. I think society bred her to feel ashamed of her sin, and to have the personality which ultimately led her to isolate herself, but that I feel is really the biggest part society played in her isolation. I definitely see both sides though!

Victoria
 * On page 103 Hardy writes, "Recollecting the psalter that her eyes had often wandered over of a Sunday mornig before she had eaten of the tree of knowledge, she chanted [the psalter, which is a psalm from the Bible]" What could Hardy mean by utilising this biblical reference? Has Tess's ordeal given her more experience? Or does Hardy argue that she has been tainted forever like Adam and Eve?
 * What I find kind of interesting is how Hardy emphasizes nature, and the natural order as opposed to human devised conventions. For example, on page 91 Hardy writes "Most of the misery had been generated by her conventional aspect, and not by her innate senstions" and on page 86 he says "she had been made to break a necessary social law, but no law known to the environment in which she fancied herself such an anomaly". What do you think Hardy is trying to say about how people of Marlott and Tess's own family judge her? Should we rely on our "innate sensations" to judge what is right or wrong?
 * (Erica) Responding to your first question, Victoria, I think Hardy's intention in using that particular biblical reference was to illustrate that like Eve subsequent to eating from the tree of knowledge, Tess is no longer innocent. This explains why she no longer feels comfortable in the sanctified setting of the church, where she is figuratively "exposed" compared to Adam and Eve who were literally exposed when they became conscious of their own nakedness. Although Tess is undoubtedly less naive and more experienced in the ways of the world following her encounter with Alec, I don't think Hardy used this reference to imply that she has been tainted forever. Relating this back to our discussion of the baptism, I think Hardy used this mechanism to imply that Tess has recovered from her fall from spiritual grace. Indeed, rather than viewing her through a lens of sin, in the baptism scene, Hardy describes her from her comparatively more innocent siblings' perspective as an almost god-like figure: "She did not look like Sissy to them now, but as a being large, towering, and awful...a divine personage with whom they had nothing in common." (p. 95)

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Victoria This questions applies it you've read through "The Rally"- Do you think Tess, who is moral and religious, truly believes that she is tainted and unworthy because of her past and thus rejects Angel's advances. Or is she just following what society dictates, because "in the eyes of propriety [she is] far less worthy of him than the homelier ones whom he ignored" (148).

Erica On page 195 (question applicable to "The Consequence") after Tess exclaims to Angel that she is "not worthy of him," Angel responds that "Distinction does not consist in the facile use of a contemptible set of conventions, but in being numbered among those who are true, and honest, and just, and pure, and lovely, and of good report-as you are, my Tess." Do you think that Angel's love for Tess is superficial, based on an idealized notion of her that does not truly exist? Is his love for Tess on an equal level as her love for him? What impact do you predict the revelation of Tess' secret will have on his devotion? (Tally): Erica, I have found Angel to be a somewhat contradictory character as well (I hope I didn't just put words in your mouth...). I thought he was supposed to be above convention, but he seems to put more stock in Tess' image and how he perceives her that he is not willing to find out her secrets and who she truly is. This surprised me because I had expected him to be desirous to connect to her on a deeper level, but I think he has created such an idealized image of her that to change it now will be almost earth-shattering for him. I think that he truly thinks that the hardest part of their marriage will be finding a way to "Familiarize [her] with wordly ways" (210) so that he can have her meet her parents. Angel is a sweet and extremely considerate man who won't even put his arm around Tess' waist if he is afraid she doesn't want it (the complete opposite of Alec), but at the same time I think he has fallen in love with the idea of a naive and pure young woman instead of perhaps the true person that Tess is. I hope that Angel will be accepting of her secret, but I feel like since Hardy made so much of her not being able to tell him until after they were married, the incident will not end well at this point. However, Angel is very cognizant of the double standard in their society ("Their condition of domiciliary comradeship put her, as the woman, to such disadvantage by its enforced intercourse..." [181]), but I am not so sure that he can see this double standard as it is about to apply to his affair versus her (forced) one. With that being said, however, I feel like there is much of Tess that does fit the mold of being "true, honest, just, pure, lovely...", and that Angel does see these things in Tess that perhaps she does not see in herself-- he has not deceived himself very much about her personality, he has just been blind perhaps in places he should have been (like how she REPEATEDLY tries to tell him her secret but he puts it off...)

(JILL): Wow Tally, you covered a lot of ground! I guess I would start off by saying that I do think Angel does, in part, love Tess because of an image. He does love her because of her "true, honest, just, pure, lovely..." nature as you said Tally, and I also agree (Tally) that I don't think that these characteristics are completely separate from Tess. By this I mean, I do in fact think that Tess is these things, but I do think that Angel sort of took these thoughts and ran with them, creating almost a snowball effect to the degree which I also agree Erica, his view of Tess is partly fiction. However, if I am understanding you correctly Tally, I think that I disagree in terms of what Angel's reaction will be. I think that his reaction to even discussing their faults makes it seem as though he expects them, and that they are sure to be mutual. He comments before confessing, "Put your head there, because I want you to forgive me, and not be indignant with me for not telling you before, as perhaps I ought to have done." (Pg. 224) His upfront nature about his own faults, and the fact that he insinuates that she has the power to be angry with him for them makes it seem as thought he will not judge her for her faults, in turn. Maybe I expect too much of him, but he seems to be a fair, open minded man and if any man of the time could understand her, and who would not hold a double standard, it would be Angel. Also, lastly, I just wanted to say that I think part of loving someone is being blind to their faults initially. I think every couple goes through that honeymoon period where they don't see each others flaws, the puppy love kind of stage, before they learn to accept each others flaws, and learn to love the other person not just in spite of their flaws, but in fact learn to love those aspects of their character. I am optimistic that Angel and Tess are just about to leave their honeymoon period and move onto a relationship that is about something more, and accepting of both of their flaws.

Erica No, Tally you didn't put the words in my mouth. I pretty much agree with everything that you've been saying! However, Jill, I disagree with you that this will end happily. I think it is very possible that Angel may be guilty of the double standard when it comes to issues such as these. For instance, as Tally pointed out I believe that it is very telling that he won't let Tess confess her faults to him. When she tries her puts her off saying, "No, no-we can't have faults talked of-you must be deemed perfect to-day at least, Sweet!" (p. 211) On some level, I think Angel needs Tess to be this "perfect" woman he has conceived of because I think in her he is seeking to have his non-traditional choices validated and to prove to himself that he is capable of redemption for his own sins. For instance, although Angel outwardly claims to shun aristocracy when he discovers that Tess is of the D'Urberville line he secretly revels in her old lineage, and goes on to buy the house of one of her ancestors and a fine gown and jewels for Tess, apparel that is not exactly appropriate for a farmer's wife. I think his views are further demonstrated when, speaking of Tess, he remarks to himself, "What I am, she is. What I become, she must become. What I cannot be she cannot be." (p. 218) I think this quote reveals that Angel's love and devotion is very likely conditional, dependent on her continued appearance as the ideal woman-beautiful, noble, kind, and most importantly, innocent. Based on this, I don't think Tess' revelation of her status as a formerly unwed mother will go over very well. While I agree, Jill, that their honeymoon phase is definitely over, I think that rather than embarking onto "something more," Angel is about to suffer a pretty abrupt reality check about who exactly he has married.

Tess and Angel are repeatedly compared to biblical characters, and especially Adam and Eve, throughout "The Rally" and "The Consequence" [ex: "The spectral, half-compounded, aqueous light which pervaded the open mead, impressed them with a feeling of isolation, as if they were Adam and Eve" (page 130)] Why do you think Hardy makes these connections? What about their relationship is similar to the relationship of Adam and Eve? Do you think there is an event that has already happened (like her incident with Alec) that has already symbolized the "eating of the fruit" in the story, or do you think that incident is yet to come?

Jill: Before the ultimate confession scene (by both Angel and Tess) at the end of "The Consequence", the story of Jack Dollop and his fiance's lack of forthcomingness before their wedding comes up at the breakfast table on the dairy. When Tess was asked what she thought the woman ought to have done, she responds, "I think she ought - to have told him the true state of things - or else refused him - I don't know." (Pg. 180) It is clear that Tess tried on several occasions to tell Angel the truth in person and through her letter, and had previous tried the approach of refusing his proposals, but in the end, neither Tess nor Angel revealed their discretions. Do you think that they should have done so before they were married, given their honest personalities, and how (if at all) do you think their relationship would have developed differently if they had been forthcoming? Does this change your perception of their characters? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Post-Vacation Section:

Jill: - Marian and Izz write in their letter to Angel that, "a woman should not be try'd beyond her strength, and continual dropping will wear away a stone - ay, more - a diamond". Their implication is that should Angel stay away long enough, Tess might, even against her best intentions, be run into the arms of Alec. Do you agree? Do you predict that her perceived eternal love of Angel can endure a prolonged absence? - In this next section of the novel, Alec again seems to be a split character between a reformed penance seeker, and the same vile rapist he formerly was. On the one hand, he gives money to Tess and offers her his house to her family when they are evicted. On the other hand he comments, "...remember one thing!...I was your master once! I will be your master again. If you are any man's wife you are mine!" Which character (the kind or the evil) do you think Alec really is? (or any combination there of)

Tally: 1) On pages 259-260, Angel is struggling with the conflict between his morals/philosophy and the reality that is happening around him: "He concluded the not one of those great and wise men had ever gone so far outside themselves as to test the feasibility of his own counsel. 'This is the chief thing: be not perturbed,' said the Pagan moralist. That was just Clare's own opinion. But he was perturbed." In what other characters do you see a conflict between what they want to believe in and what their emotions make them feel/act upon? Do you think Alec has a conflict such as this one, or do you think he is lacking in morals altogether and run entirely by emotion? Is it a characteristic of humanity that we cannot act entirely objectively and based on only morals and not emotions, or is it simply hypocrisy when it occurs?

2) At the end of part one, on page 265, Hardy/the narrator argues that "No prophet had told him [Angel], and he was not prophet enough to tell himself, that essentially this young wife of his was as deserving of the praise of King Lemuel as any other woman... in considering what Tess was not, he overlooked what she was, and forgot that the defective can be more than the entire." By the end of the next section, do you think that Izz Huet was the "prophet" that Angel needed to see how devoted and wonderful Tess truly is? What do you think the last part ("forgot...entire") means?

Erica I. In response to her plea for forgiveness in the beginning of “The Woman Pays,” Angel tells Tess that, “Forgiveness does not apply to the case. You were one person; now you are another.” (228) He condemns her for this “deceit,” yet in many ways he himself seems to possess a contradictory set of morals and beliefs. My question is, do you think that Tess can accuse Angel of this same duplicity? Is he only the victim of Tess’ lies or can he also be blamed for his actions leading to their marriage and subsequent estrangement? II. On page 279, Tess comes across a group of injured pheasants and promptly dispatches them, exclaiming, “Poor darlings-to suppose myself the most miserable being on earth in the presence of such misery as this!” Why do you think Hardy included this scene? What do you think it represents?

Victoria ~ Tess clearly feels great guilt for her duplicity and is extremely submissive, thinking everything was her fault, in the wake of her confession to Angel. She even offers to kill herself, "the river is down there, I can put an end to myself in it." But where do you think this passivity and self-castration comes from? Is it because Tess is so completely in love with Angel, or do you think it's more because society sees Tess' past transgression as wrong, and she strongly feels and agrees with their disapproval?

~ Tess despairing thinks in The Convert that "bygones would never be complete bygones till she was a bygone herself." Given what we know of Tess, Angel (and even Alec), can you truly see Tess' misfortunes becoming bygones? Can reconciliation be possible between Tess and Angel ever?