Daffodils

​Kelsey: 1) Celeste noticed that there was something wrong with Dave's story from the start, yet she proceed to hide the "evidence" before attempting to figure out what actually happened. Why was she so easy on Dave-- is she afraid of him? Will Celeste continue to allow Dave to deceive her, or do you think she'll ultimately gain enough confidence to confront him?

2) Is the case drawing Sean and Jimmy back together, or farther apart? Why has Jimmy taken out Sean's old glove (sybolism)?

Emily: 1) Dave is afraid to tell Celeste the truth as he seems to believe that if he does, she will distance herself from him and end the relationship. Yet Celeste ,"... was- definately- a woman who did not shrink from gauntlets, but stepped up to them, and said, Okay bring it. Bring your worst. I will get back up. Every time. I will not shrivel and die. So watch out." pg 142. Why is there such a discrepency? Which character has misjudged the other? Does Dave really have a different reason for lying to his wife? If or when Celeste finds out what Dave did what do you think her reaction will be?

2) In grief, Jimmy develops an interesting way of viewing how his life has played out. He said, "I'm just saying there are threads, okay? Threads in our lives. You pull one, and everything else gets affected. Say it rained in Dallas and so Kennedy didn't ride in a convertable. Stalin stayed in the seminary. Say you and me, Sean, say we got in that car with Dave Boyle." pg 174. Do you think that the novel/author agrees with Jimmy here? Is this reaction merely a defense mechanism of Jimmy's, or does it have some merit? How have the 'threads' of Dave, Sean, and Dave's lives affected each other so far?

Kelsey (I've decided to be blue from now on): I thought that Jimmy's comment was extremely insightful. It seems that Jimmy has a lot underneath his tough-guy image. In addition, although Jimmy may be unaware at the time, I have a feeling that his comment contains much more than a deep thought. Katie's murder, and other event(s) that took place that night, have yet to unravel (I'm not lying-- I still haven't gotten to a point at which they do). However, in a way, Jimmy's comment is probably foreshadowing (or predicting, depending on how you look at it) what actually happened that night. There are parts included in the book (like Jimmy's wife's death, Celeste's mothers death, and even the car-abduction scene) that have yet to fit into the plot. However, as Jimmy unknowingly pointed out, every action is tied to another and is going to have some kind of consequence. Perhaps, one string was pulled, leading to another and another, and ultimately Katie was dead.

Emily: Kelsey I agree with your foreshadowing ideas...there are definately many aspects of the plot which have yet to be incorporated into the most recent plot surrounding Katie's death. I can't wait to see what other moments from the past come back to fit into the murder. Each detail of Sean, Dave's, and Jimmy's childhood and youg adult hood is like a puzzle piece of a puzzle that is still being solved. The mystery genre of Mystic River allows the readers to try to peice together the puzzle themselves before the finished puzzle is revealed. Like all intricate puzzles, there are always pieces that seem like they might fit in one place when they really belong in the opposite corner. I can't help but feel that way about Dave. His 'puzzle piece' seems like it is destined to be a part of Katie's murder, but sometimes the most obvious solutions are the most likely to be incorrect. It is easy to take sides against Dave, but I think he may have had less of a role in the murder than we all think he did. I like the novel's 'thread' philosophy of fate. It seems the more I read, the more past events are being tied back to the murder. The novel seems to emphasize that every past event, no matter how small, will eventually effect the future. When I read this quote I thought immediately back to how this novel was very similar in terms of philosophy to the movie "The Butterfly Effect" (which I know neither of you have seen, but it's a really good movie and Ashton Kutcher is in it so you should go watch it!). I think that the author does agree with Jimmy here, and Lehane's own voice comes through as he emphasizes how one action may deter you from or set you on the path of a certain 'thread.' Perhaps Lehane wrote Jimmy to have this train of thought because it is going to become a prominent message/theme by the end of the novel. This notion of how one action, impulsive or not, impacts the unraveling future, seems to be a reoccurring reference. It also fits well with the symbolism in the car doors opening and closing. The moment when Jimmy and Sean decided not to get in the car, and Dave got in the car, literally closed the door to their friendship but opened another door down the way that brought them back in contact (but that also obviously had some negative consequences as Jimmy reflects on). The philosophy here being (I think) that all these little actions in our lives not only affect us, but others as well in ways that are not always known, in a web that connects the 'threads' of our fates.

AHHHH. my computer just overheated or something and I finally got it to come back on and I thought I had lost everything but I think wiki autosaves every so often. yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Oh this is Sara by the way! And just to be clear, are we keeping everything on the 'page' tab? ​ Sara: 1. There is abundant symbolism/parallelism with cars and roads associated with the past and future. What message, if any, is there about impulse vs. reason and its relation to fate?

2. When Jimmy takes the baseball glove from Sean, it is really the last time that they ever speak for 25 years. Sean ends up getting a new baseball glove, that makes the lump in his bed. Is their symbolism here? (This reminded me a little bit of Owen Meany)

​ When Jimmy walked off with Sean's glove, one thing it symbolized was the end of their friendship/contact... at least for the time being. But Sean got a new baseball glove and it waited under his bed, ready to come out and be used at any given moment. Maybe, like the glove, Jimmy remained unseen (but nevertheless present) in Sean's life all along. Fate was just waiting for the right moment to reunite the two boys--and finally, under the very unfortunate circumstances of Katie's death, the baseball glove was taken out, and Sean and Jimmy are back in contact again. I know that in many ways this is really stretching it, but it was the first explanation that came to mind.. Yeah Kelsey I think that's definitely legitimate, and is another symbol that is used to cue us into the the overall theme of this interconnected web/thread that determines fate. Also, it's interesting that Dave was going to go pro for baseball and I wonder how that might fit in with our theory on the baseball glove symbolism? Also, I thought that there was a mention about how Dave's son, Michael (or Mitchell?), was going to play baseball season as a 'catcher.' I am not sure what this might mean for Michael but maybe it will come up later...

I also think the lump under the bed could symbolize the discomfort of losing a friend. With the departure of Sean's old glove, went Sean's friendship with Jimmy and the new glove under Sean's bed seemed to be a reminder of that loss. I agree with Kelsey....there is a lot to be said about the fact that the boys' friendship ended with Jimmy stealing the glove and then their relationship was rekindled around the scene where Dave was playing ball with his son. Like the car doors, the glove or baseball in general seemed to act as a segway between periods of togetherness and seperation. That might be a little stretch, but nonetheless there seems to be some significant symbolism surounding the glove. It is an appropriate symbol too...a glove is for catcing and throwing and in the novel the appearence of the glove indicates a change of the times. The glove brings people together or pushes them apart much like the back and forth movement in a game of catch.

3. Counterpart symbolism--> how does Lehane use the imagery of counterparts to show the unfolding fates of his characters? i.e --> doors (literally car doors) opening and closing, adrenaline leaving sean’s pore and being refilled, sean’s glove getting stolen leaves hole in mattress filled with new glove…

.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................. Hey guys! I'm so surprised mystic river didn't come up last night! haha. I thought you, Kelsey, would definitely start leading us in a book group discussion ;). Anyways, are we ready to post questions? I just want to make sure that we are all on the same page so that nothing is given away.

Haha! We'll make sure to discuss it next Saturday night..... Anyways, I've come up with two more questions and am ready to start discussing. But spoiler alert: do not read the second question unless you've read up to/through page 342!

1) Jimmy “said without speaking: I know in my soul I contributed to my child’s death. I can feel it. But I don’t know how.” (262) This quote is not only chilling, but once again relates back to the interconnected threads that we discussed previously. Any predictions on how Jimmy might directly tie into Katie’s murder? Also—when “the knowledge [does] come,” will it destroy Jimmy? Will he ever be able to move on?

This quote really stuck out to me too. Sorry to bring up the puzzle analogy again but this definately seems like another piece of the puzzle....just how it fits in I'm not sure yet. There is definately something about Jimmy's past that I feel must play a role in Katie's murder. I wonder if Jimmy' s old crew or someone from his past life as a criminal was directly involved in Katie's murder. More simply, Jimmy's feeling that he contributed to Katie's death could just be the fact that he is friends with Dave and Dave seems to be a major suspect righ t now. Maybe I am just being hyper suspicious, but I don't think that Dave killed Katie (that would be too obvious). If I am right, then Jimmy's involvment is much more complicated than soley being friends with Dave. Alternatively, Jimmy's role in Katie's murder could have something to do with his disaproval of Brendan. If the 'thread' philosphy does carry through the entire book than Katie could have been trying to hide her relationship from her dad which in turn caused her to have a bacholorette party (if thats what we are calling it) which in turn caused her to be driving down that road at the time of the man with the gun. Depite the unlimited number of options...I feel that Jimmy's role in Katie's murder is most likely a very close and direct one. If this chilling quote acts as foreshadowing than I am ready for a major plot twist in which we figure out Dave did not kill Katie but someone else (someone somehow related to Jimmy) killed her. When Jimmy does learn of the role he had in his daughter's murder I am not sure how he will react. His reactions are certainly somewhat dependant on how large of a role he played in her death. On one hand, Jimmy openly stated that he loved Katie more than Annabeth and even more than his two other daughters. That is a lot of love, and that much love could escalate Jimmy's reactions to his involvement in Katie's death to a dangerous level. On the other hand, Jimmy seems to realize that every event is a 'thread' in the storyline of life, and maybe that will be enough for him to accept that her death was destined to happen and is undoubtedly going to effect a different event in the future.

I like that you added in that alternative reaction of acceptance. I really do like Jimmy, and I hope that in the end he finds some sense of peace--even if the role he played was very, very direct. I think all the pieces of the murder will come together in the end, but I still can't imagine a very satisfying ending (either way, Katie's dead)-- but an ending in which Jimmy finds some kind of peace would be ideal. This isn't a very strong prediction, as we know very little about the relationship between Jimmy and "Just Ray" Harris at this point, but I have a feeling that (dead or alive) Just Ray will definitely come up as the murder unravels. Jimmy's connection to the murder could have been through Just Ray. Maybe Jimmy was Ray's accomplice in the liquor store hold up all those years back? (I wouldn't put it past him) Maybe the gun used in that hold up belonged to Jimmy, but ultimately landed in Ray's hands. (This would all be before their huge falling out and Ray's disapperance, of course) Anyway, maybe Katie was shot with Jimmy's gun.... That would have given Jimmy a signifant role in his own daughter's murder. I basically just jumped from one assumption to another--this sounds very far-fetched, especially when written out, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

2) When Sean tells Jimmy that Katie was planning to elope with Brendan Harris, Jimmy is stunned. Jimmy explains that he knew Brendan’s father and that “he never liked the guy much.” (281) However, Sean sees through this casual statement—believing that there is much more to Jimmy’s hatred. How deep do you think Jimmy’s hatred for “Just Ray” Harris goes? After page 342 we know that Ray Harris definitely had //something// to do with the murder, but do you think he was directly involved?

AHHH good questions Kelsey! Yeah I think I have some predictions...but first, my discussion questions :)

1) When Annabeth is sitting with Sean, she sighs, “these silly dreams you have when you’re young. I mean, what, Katie and Brendan Harris were going to make a life in Las Vegas? How long would that little Eden have lasted?...life isn’t happily ever after and golden sunsets and shit like that. It’s work…You’ll be let down. You’ll be disappointed and have your trust broken and have a lot of really sucky days. You lose more than you win. You hate the person you love as much as you love him. But, shit, you roll up your sleeves and work—at everything—because that’s what growing older is.” (293) Do you agree with the unromantic (yet perhaps very truthful) way in which Annabeth explains the terms of marriage, love, growing older, and/or life in general? How do Annabeth and Jimmy compare to Katie and Brendan as a couple? To Celeste and Dave? And for that matter, how might this quote shed some light on Jimmy’s strength/maturity in comparison to Sean and Dave?

​ ​Annabeth's words definitely brought me back down to reality. I had this picture of Katie's perfect and happy life with Brendan--one that was flushed away as soon as Katie was murdered. Obviously, Katie's death is devastating and would be no matter the circumstances, but watching the potential for such a perfect life slip away almost made it worse. What Annabeth said is harsh, but completely true. No marriage is perfect, and just because you love someone doesn't mean that everything is going to work out, and it doesn't mean that every day is going to be a good one. Annabeth and Jimmy are the only functional couple at this point, so they seem to have figured something out that neither Sean nor Dave have. Perhaps Katie and Brendan never would have figured it out either. The key seems to be that "you roll up your sleeves and work--at everything--because that's what growing older is." Jimmy has certianly grown up--he's definitely made progress from his days of car theft and Deer Island.

Emily's Second set of Disscussion Questions: 1. In Mystic River, there is a fair amount of description dedicated to the parent's of each boy; Sean, Dave, and Jimmy. Dave's mom was elusive and quiet. She never wanted to talk about what exactly happened to Dave, and taught him to withold his story. Sean's father is the youngest of a large family and taught Sean everything he knows about twisting other people's words and interrogation techniques. Jimmy's mother almost died giving birth to him and his father hated him ever since. How is all of the background information on each boy's family important to the novel? How has each boy been affected by his parents and how will those threads of information tie into Katie's murder?

2. After Sean talks to Celeste she is reasonably shaken up about the possibility that Dave murdered Katie. Upon retourning to her house, Celeste finds Dave watching a vampire movie. Dave acts confrontational and says, "They don't know who the real people are and who the vampires are....He's going to fall in love with that blonde girl, even though he knows she's been bitten. So she's going to turn into a vampire, but he don't care, right? Because he loves her. Yet she's a blood sucker. She is going to suck his blood and turn him into the walking dead. I mean, thats the whole thing with vampirism, Celeste-there's something attractive about it. Even if you know it will kill you and damn your soul for an eternity and you'll have to spend all your time biting people in the neck, and hiding out from the sun, and, you know, Vatican hit squads. Maybe one day you wake up and forget what it was to be human. Maybe that happens, adn then its okay. You've been poisoned, but the poison ain't all that bad once you learn how to live with it." Sorry for the long quote but Dave's seemingly lunatic rambling has a definate connection to how Dave feels about his life and perhaps his childhood kidnapping and later in life marriage. How do you think this quote is a metaphor for Dave's life? What does the disease of vampirism sybolize in Dave's life? What insight does this give to whether or not Dave is quilty of murdering Katie?

This quote also struck me as very powerful, but also extremely disturbing. I'm glad you typed out the whole quote--almost all of it somehow seems to parallel Dave's life, and Celeste's as well. First of all, Dave is a seemingly normal guy. He may have some nervous habits, but on the surface he appears as a plain, middle-aged father whose glory days (of baseball) are over. The poison is what the wolves gave him--it's what was left inside of him after he escaped. At least at times, he lapses into accepting the poison. The night that he murdered someone, he "forgot what it was to be human."

This quote could also relate to Celeste. Unaware of what lay beneath Dave's surface, Celeste fell in love with him. She quickly became aware that there are secrets from Dave's childhood, but maybe that's what was so "attractive" about him--all of the mysteries. By falling in love with Dave, and getting caught in this horrible situation (hiding the evidence, etc) Celeste was also beginning to forget "what it was to be human." At least at first, she teams up with Dave (because she loves him), and asks no questions. However, Celeste doesn't tolerate "living with the poison" for long--as soon as the pieces begin to fit together, she takes Michael and gets out of there.

I think we're supposed to post more discussion questions over vacation (but not discuss them here)? Anyway, here are mine:

1) Jimmy can be seen in a new light when he has a realization at the end; he realizes that he's "never felt much guilt for anything he'd done," he's only been afraid of bad karma. (442) In addition, he declares that he "owns" the neighborhood, and from now on he is going to protect it. Before this, Jimmy seemed like a strong, likeable character with a flawed past. How does this "new" attitude reflect on his character? Do you think his attitude is justified?

2) Throughout the book, we discussed the threads that connected all of the characters lives and actions. Do you think that, in the end, all of these threads connected/ fell into place? Were there any disconnected threads that left you unsatisfied?

Here are my (Emily's) vacation discussion questions: -by the way I am sooo glad we watched the movie!

1. As a piece of crime fiction, Mystic River contains an interesting selection of views about and plot lines relating to crime. Sean is a detective who works to uphold the law throughout the book...even at the end when he swears he will try to prove Jimmy is guilty of Dave's murder. Dave both commited a crime agaisnt a pedophile and had a crime committed against him by a pedophile. Jimmy was a skilled criminal who went straight for Katie but at the end of the novel seemed to revert back to his old ways. What, if any, message does the novel have about 21st century crime? What are some motives? Is any criminal act justifiable? How did grief, sin, karma, hope and the lack of hope, the inevitability of change, the primal importance of family ties, the vulnerability of children, and the countless ways in which past events continue to influence the present influence the criminal actions of the characters?

2.The investigation forces Dave, Jimmy, and Sean to face their pasts and to examine the paths they have followed since the day when Dave was abducted. In each reflection there seems to be a reaccuring theme of how one evil event can taint people for the rest of their lives, like a curse. How does that theme apply to Dave? Sean? Jimmy? There also seems to be a pattern of people wounding relationships because they themelves have been wounded. How does this apply to each character?