Daisies

​​ Meg DeJong Note: I'm on page 84....I'm not sure if these questions are still relevant if you're further along in the book...

Question One:In chapters three and four incidents are described involving Dave Boyle and Jimmy's daughter, Katie Marcus. Do you think it's possible that these events are linked? Could Dave be responsible for Katie's disappearance (and posssible death)? Does Dave have any motives?

Question Two: Up to this point, it is not clear how Dave's kidnapping when he was younger is significant. How do you think this event will be tied into the present day lives of Dave, Jimmy and Sean? Will it be tied in at all?

So I decided to do what the tulips group did, so this is Haley and I'm going to be purple. I think the significance of Dave's kidnapping, at least as seen so far, is that it is hidden and ignored; he hasn't faced it or dealt with it, and maybe that has influenced his life in ways that even he is unaware of. I think the incident with the fight shows him breaking through with anger from his past. When he was threatened, he snapped, and his memories of his vulnerability as a child when he was kidnapped caused him to get very offensive and aggressive. While I don't really know how the kidnapping will influence the lives of Jimmy and Sean in the present because we haven't seen how they all become reconnected, I think we have seen influences of their pasts in their present lives. For example, Jimmy, who was always stealing and getting into trouble, ended up in prison, and Sean, who was not pleased to tolerate his friend's bad behavior as a kid, is now enforcing that as a police officer.

Haley I'm up to page 105

Question 1: "WIn for me. Win for my kids. Win for my marriage so I can carry your winning back to the car with me and sit in the glow of it with my family as we drive back toward our otherwise winless lives. Win for me. Win. Win. Win." (57) Do you think the characters in the novel rely on external sources and material things/distractions too much for happiness and their livelihood? (Jimmy relying on keeping simply keeping Katie alive instead of loving being a father, Dave relying on drinking rather than focusing on the problems in his life...). Do we do the same thing?

This is Julia and I'll be this pinkish color. Response to question 1: Yes and yes. Certainly I think Katie and Dave rely on material things to PROVIDE them with pleasure. In this quote Dave almost seems to say that it is a responsibility of the baseball team and the scoreboard to ensure his happiness and the happiness of the fans. Thats a lot to ask of something we have no control over. To join the two quotes you picked, it almost seems too much to place a dream on something material. To bet our happiness on an outcome for which a material object is responsible seems like a set-up for disappointment. Additionally, even if the team wins, Dave admits that the families will still have to go back to their "otherwise winless lives." Similarly Katie, in her 'bachelorette party' seems dependant on alcohol for a good time. In the end the buzz is spoiled by reality. She even admits that the next day she'll probably regret her behavior as she'll undoubtedly have to endure her own wedding with a hangover. The joy derived from her material pursuits in itself spoils the happiness that is supplied the reality that is her wedding. Ultimately these material distractions are just a quick fix. They simply distract from the now and later we often have to pay for the happiness they offer in that moment. They also don't make us any better or happier in the long run. For example distractions that I think people often differ to today are the television, internet, video games etc... Advances in media and technology have made it so easy to avoid real work from which we can gain a real sense of accomplishment and happiness. It has made self-discipline and will-power much more valuable as paths to true happiness.

Question 2: "I will not dream anymore, you said. I will not set myself up for the pain. But then...and you said, f*** it, let's dream just one more time." (59) Many of the characters have very rough pasts and less than delightful-looking futures. Do you think this is because they have given up on dreaming for anything better or they don't know of anything better to dream of? Is dreaming worth the pain, or does it only set us up for hurt?**

Response to question two: I haven't got to the point in the book where Sean is introduced to the reader in the present, so I can only discuss how I think this applies to Dave and Jimmy. I believe that Dave has probably given up on dreaming. When he was younger, he was kidnapped and had to live with his mother who was "soft in the head (15)." Dave probably grew up dreaming that he would one day have a better life, that things would get better when he got older. However, we learn that Dave still lives in the "Flats" and seems dissatisfied with the life he has. At this point, dreaming likely feel useless to him because his dreams have never come true. If he kept on allowing himself to have these dreams, it would only continue to hurt him more and more when they were never realized. I think the same thing generally holds true in Jimmy's case. Jimmy was was a wild and free spirit when he was younger, but as he became older, he was forced to settle down and become more tame. It wouldn't suprise me if Jimmy used to dream that he could one day be wild again, but as he became older and older and his dream never came true, he just gave up on dreaming all together. At this point, I think both Jimmy and Dave could think of plenty things better to dream of, but that they've learned to suppress their dreams so that they wouldn't have to feel the hurt it caused them when they didn't come true. However, I think that dreaming is worth the pain it sometimes causes. Dreams are sort of a method for escaping the day to day things you have to face; it relieves you of the stress of reality and allows your mind to drift off to a happier place. I think dreams can only really set you up for hurt when you become dependent on these dreams becoming a reality.**
 * This is Meg and I'm going to be whatever blue/green color this is.

>>Things DID get better for Dave for a little while though. To me it seems that in sum his dreams aren't as much about material possessions or personal accomplishments. He seems to dream about being accepted by others. The only time when he seems to have been really happy with himself was when during his golden years as a baseball player when everyone ELSE in the 'Flats' was cheering for him. "Baseball star. Pride of the Flats for three short years. No one refering to him as the kid who'd been abducted when he was ten anymore" (58) I wonder if thats any way to live either, to base the level of our accomplishments off of the acceptance of others. How do you think we can avoid this? How could/ should Dave have avoided this 'dream?

This is Julia & i'm on page 96 Question 1: "Your team had failed you and served only to remind you that usually when you tried, you lost. When you hoped, hope died." (57)

Often the media, or our parents, tell us that if we try hard enough we can do anything. Do you think effort and perseverance are directly responsible for the outcome of a goal or can wanting and trying so hard to reach a goal in fact hinder the process and the outcome? If neither extreme is true, where is the 'happy balance'? Basically, how valid is Dave's point? How have other characters in the book experianced this failed hope?

I think this is sort of related to my 2nd question about dreaming. I think that wanting and trying really hard to reach a goal will not hinder us from reaching that goal, though their may be external hindrances that do keep us from success. However, I do think that when we set our goals too high we set ourselves up for failure, and possibly make our chances even worse. One example of this in my life (yup, college again) is when I was looking at schools with my parents. Had I decided that I was not going to get in anywhere I applied, I would not have tried as hard because I would have expected no reward for my efforts. I would have created my own failure by suddenly stopping trying. On the opposite side of the spectrum, if I had doubted myself and made my goal less lofty, I probably wouldn't have tried as hard either because I would have been less excited about the prospects and more confident in the reward. I think the happy medium is to dream big enough that there are risks, but small enough that the risk does not outweigh the reward (which is why we have safety schools!). I think one character in the book who has experienced the opposite of this failed hope is Jimmy. Initially, when he was young, his goal was probably to steal enough that he could be filthy rich and control anything and everything. When he was an adult and in prison I don't think he really dreamed at all or had any real goals in mind, besides staying out of prison. Currently, his goals seem to be more of a happy medium. While to us his life does not seem glamorous, compared to his neighbors and family, Jimmy is in a very solid position. He owns a little store, has a family to support, and his happy with his life. He knows what he wants, what he can and wants to control, and how he is going to do it in a reasonable manner. I think he needed to experience both extremes negatively, though, to realize that he needed to find this balance, and what this balance looks like in his life. I think that Dave's point has some validity, especially in respect to his own life. Dave probably really hoped for a better future than he has, and did not picture himself still living in the "Flats." We don't really know how hard Dave tried, but regardless, he seems to view his life as a failure. I think that sometimes failure just happens and dreams are not reached even when you do try really hard. This is not to say that trying hard to reach a goal directly hinders the outcome, but sometimes in spite of all the effort, dreams/goals just aren't realized. I think that everybody can find a happy balance in their lives: work hard and have goals and dreams in mind, but don't let your aspirations dictate everything you do. I agree somewhat with what Haley said: that Jimmy experienced the opposite of this failed hope. Jimmy has a family and his own store, but do we really know how happy he is? The Jimmy we see at the beginning of the book, the young Jimmy, was wild and free. Is is possible that Jimmy had to suppress his deisres to be freedom and wildness in order to be the man we see today? Could some part of Jimmy still wish that he could be more like who he was when he was younger? Is anyone every //completely// happy with the circumstances in their lives?

It's certainly possible that Jimmy had to give up some of his childhood freedom to become a successful and relatively happy adult, but he doesn't seem sorry to have HAD to have made the change. I think life is full of 'gives' and 'gets' but you HAVE to give in order to get. Jimmy had to let go of some of his boyish pleasures in order to grow up. He loves Katie, a product of his new life, and he would never have gotten to this point of happiness if he didn't let go of some of his freedom and wildness. I think thats what growing up is all about. We have to lose some virtues to rise to a new, maybe elevated life. For example, children seem to have no inhibitions because they have not yet been fully socialized. They don't yet have the social consciousness that burdens adults. They are ignorant. Perhaps this ignorance is bliss, but what do we trade this ignorance for as we grow older? Perhaps wisdom, or knowledge, or other new understandings of the world. Just like Jimmy, we have to accept that we must let go of some pleasures to recieve new ones. I think there is always something to regret, but I think the closest we can come to complete happiness is not to ignore the mistakes, but accept them as part of who we have become and accept that mistakes and missteps happen. Yes, sometimes failures happen and sometimes we have to give to get, but if we are able to accept that and build on it in a positive way, I think that is the closest to happiness we can come. To relate Meg's response to this quote to my other quote, I think this is something that might help Dave. Dave needs to accept that bad things sometimes happen, but also that he CAN take his life into his own hands. He doesn't have to live in his sorrows, he can build on them and make a positive life experiance for himself by accepting that the mistakes and the misfortune are in the past, and by accepting himself.

>>>also haley i'm really glad u talked about college. Thats pretty much THE REASON why I picked this quote. I also really liked what you said about creating our own failures by stopping trying. Perhaps that's one of Daves problems as well. As Meg said in reponse to the second quote Dave has "learned" that he will fail so he's stopped trying.

Question 2: " [Dave'd] tell himself later, after it was all over and done, that Fate had played hand....Fate sitting up in the clouds somewhere, someone saying to him, Bored today, Fate? Fate going, A bit. Kinda think i'll f* with Dave Boyle, though, cheer myself right up." What does this quote reveal about Dave's character? Who do you really believe is responsible for Dave's misery and why? This is NOT to suggest that Dave is responsible for his own kidnapping, but more generally speaking, is Dave in the right to blame Fate? What are his alternative options?

I think that this reveals that Dave is someone who would rather blame any failures or shortcomings on external forces, such as fate, rather than attributing any misery he feels to something within himself. Dave feels that fate is responsible for everything bad that happens, and maybe even sometimes good things that happen to him. This shows that Dave feels that he has no control over his life. Over all, I think that everybody, Dave included, are responsbile themselves, rather than fate, for the misery they feel in their lives. However, I do somewhat understand why Dave has choosen to attribute all his misery to fate. Dave had a horrible childhood to say the least and now he seems largely dissatisfied with the life he is living. In psychology, there is something called "learned helplessness." An example of learned helplessness would be if you continued failing tests in a certain class even though you studied really hard. Eventually, after enough instantances of failure and if you experienced learned helplessness, you would feel that your efforts were never enough and would stop trying in not only that one subject, but in most other aspects of your life. In the beginning of the novel, when Dave, Jimmy and Sean are all young, it seems that the only hope Dave had is that he would have a better adulthood than he did a childhood. Since Dave never really got what he wanted in life, as I mentioned in my response to Haley's question about dreams, Dave has probably just given up and doesn't feel like he has any say in what happens to him; he has learned to become helpless. To sum it up, I don't belivve that Dave has the right to blame fate. In fact, I don't think that anybody has that right. I think that one alternative Dave has is to try to take control over his life and take responsiblity for the things that happen to him, whether they be good or bad.
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Discussion Two

Why do you think Dave seems to be showing no remorse for what he did? Do you think that Dave truly has no guilt or is he putting up a front? Should Celeste continue to let Dave act as if nothing happened or should she try to get more information out of him? Do you think that Dave will be able to continue on like this?
 * Many of the characters seem to have a very tender, fragile, emotional side, but also a savage, animal, violent side (Jimmy, the Savage brothers, Dave...). Why did the author make them like this? Is everyone like this at least a little bit?

"Jimmy had gotten used to being permanently tired...He was tired and he was scared; those were two constants in his life back then, and after a while he took it for granted that they'd always be there." (104) 1) Often it takes a tragedy to make us realize what we should have held onto. Do you that that in growing up Jimmy has become complacent? Could Katie's death have been avoided if he //hadn't// taken his fear for granted? Do you think that sometimes the most uncomfortable sensations can be the most healthy for us? How so? 2) Sometimes these uncomfotable feelings can also be the ones that most remind us we are alive. Do you think that in growing up and 'mellowing-out' Jimmy has lost some 'life'?

I think that Jimmy has undergone many tragedies in his life before, one of them is obviously the incident with Katie's death, but I think there have been other incidences before, such as his stay at the correctional facility, and being pulled away from his young daughter and dying wife, have definitely also had an impact on him. For example, when he returned from the correctional facility, he all of a sudden had responsibility and he took it and ran with it. I definitely think that tragedies can make us realize what is truly important in our lives and what we need to change in ourselves, but I don't think Jimmy has become complacent. I think that, as far as we're concerned, he has taken the tragedies he has experienced in his life as an opportunity to change. I also don't think Jimmy could have done anything to prevent what happened to Katie. With as much as we know about their relationship so far, I think he was being a really great father; and he wasn't ignoring issues or doing what was easiest, he was always tired and scared because he was doing a good job and he was doing what he could to make her happy and keep her safe. Sometimes being caught in an uncomfortable and miserable situation can definitely lead to us making changes that lead to our lives being healthier, but only when we are proactive about making these changes. For example, last year I was absolutely miserable and so stressed out all the time and everything I was doing was suffering because of the compromises I had to make. Most of this gotten taken out on physics, probably because I hated it so much to begin with. After several long months of struggling and a lot of tears and missed opportunities and mistakes, I ended up dropping physics. And I was much happier. I took two extra art classes, I got more involved in my youth group. I spent more time doing things that made me happy and that I cared about. I was in a miserable and scary situation, and because of that I realized a lot of important things about myself. But realizing I was in a bad situation didn't make anything better. It was not until I was out of the bad situation that my life was healthier. I think Jimmy experienced the same thing after his scary experience at Deer Island, which made him realize everything that was actually important in his life. I also think this shows a contrast between Dave and Jimmy. I think that Jimmy has become less complacent as he has grown older, but Dave has become more so. He tries to push the past, with all of its miseries and mistakes behind him. He wants to ignore everything bad that has happened and doesn't give himself the opportunity to learn from these experiences. In some ways, I think that Jimmy could have prevented what happened to Katie. While Jimmy obviously couldn't have stopped the murderer, he //could// have stopped Katie from being in that situation. On page 77, shortly after Jimmy discovers that Katie never shows up to work, it is revealed that "This wasn't the first time Katie had stayed out all night. Hell, it wasn't even the tenth. And it wasn't even the first time she'd blown off work...And while he'd (Jimmy) never let Katie think he condoned it, he couldn't be so hypocritical in his as condemn it." As this quote shows, Jimmy was relaxed when it came to setting rules for Katie. If Jimmy had been more strict and tried to keep a closer eye on her, she likely wouldn't have been out driving (and a little drunk) in the middle of the night. I don't think that this can be entirely attributed to Jimmy becoming complacent. First off, as is revealed in the quote, Jimmy remembered what it was like to be nineteen and wild and didn't think it was fair to stop Katie from having fun. Second off, I think that in some ways Jimmy feels that he owes Katie something. Jimmy wasn't around until Katie was six, and he probably feels that he was ill prepared to take care of her once her mother died. Jimmy also reveals that his new wife, Annabeth, was always really strict with Katie, it is possible that Jimmy was relaxed with Katie because he felt badly that Annabeth was so hard on her. I agree with Haley, when she talked about physics, that sometimes it's important to leave uncomfortable situations/sensations behind. However, I do think that sometimes uncomfortable sensations are the healthiest for us because we can learn and grow from them. When somebody has to go through a really tough situation and deal with a lot of negative emotions, they will often become a stronger person. Although, there are some situations that are so severe that they have the opposite effect, for example what happened with Dave. After Dave was kidnapped and experienced the death of his mother, as Haley pointed out, he has become extremely complacent and tries to avoid revealing his true emotions, even with the people closet to him, like Celeste.

Tragedy DOES make us realize what is really important, but i wonder what if that realization comes too late? For example, the earthquake in Haiti attracted a lot of attention and now the Haitians are begining to recieve help, but Haiti needed help BEFORE the earthquake. I think it's sad that sometimes a takes a tragedy to realize what we should have done. Obviously no one can stop an earthquake, but if the preexisting poverty wasn't as severe maybe the earthquake wouldn't have been as devestating a blow to the population. What can we do to realize what is important and what change needs to occur before a tragedy // forces // us into that realization? I think maybe if Jimmy had taken a few extra precautions as a parent, perhaps Katie would not have wound up in the situation that killed her. He says fatigue and fear were "two contants in his life back then, and after a while he took it for granted that they'd always be there." Maybe in letting go of some of the fear for Katie, he let his guard down a little bit and thats partially how Katie was let out to go drinking so often. This is not to say Jimmy is a terrible parent either. I think that Jimmy should be comended for searching for "a middle ground where a kid knew the parents loved him but were still the bos, rules existed for a reason, no really meant no,..." (98) I know in my house it's often hard to find that middle ground especially between me and my mom sometimes. For example a rule that is in constant debate is that i'm not allowed to be at a friends house if a parent isn't home nor can a friend be at my house if neither of my parents are home. Even if i'm going over to work on a project for school, even if a responsible, older sibling is home, even when I turn eighteen, I can't go. Even though I know they are trying to ensure my safety, this rule makes scheduling difficult sometimes as everyone schedules are so busy and everyone's parents' schedules are so busy, so sometimes this rule causes a lot of tension. In giving Katie a little leash Jimmy made his way to the middle ground, however; maybe he should have held tighter to his fear for Katie's safety and not have allowed her to go out the night before an important family function.

--- Discussion 3

1. "...if they had an island just for baby-rapers and chicken hawks?...No one gets off. First time offenders, f ** * you, you get life on the island. Sorry, fellas, just can't risk you getting out and poisoning someone else...I figure we put 'em all on this island, less chance they can pass it on. Each generation, we have fewer and fewer of them..." (186) Some people, such as Jimmy, seem to turn around after they have realized their mistakes. But others, such as Bobby O'Donnell, continue with their criminality. Do people deserve a second chance? Are people's decisions to live lives of crime based on what happens around them: would crime stop in the future if criminals were removed?

2. "Because sometimes Dave was not Dave. He was the Boy. The Boy Who'd escaped from Wolves. But not merely that. The Boy Who'd Escaped from Wolves and Grown Up. And that was a very different creature than simply Dave Boyle." (237) Do our pasts and our "identities" contribute too much to who we allow ourselves to be and how we see ourselves/how others see us? Do we have control over our identities?

1) I know this isn't directly related to the section we're reading now, but I've noticed that the characters each have an object with/by which they can be identified. For example, Katie seems to be associated with perfume or scent in general . "He could smell her perfume, just a hint of it" (152- sean, 171-jimmy), "He merely sttod with that pillow pressed to his face and breathed in the smell of his daughter..." (220). What other objects can be portrayed as symbols of other characters? What do these objects symbolize/reveal about that character and why do you think they are important in portraying that character? What more, if anything, do they tell us about the character and his/her relationships with other characters? 2. TBA :- ) 1. "Jimmy felt Katie's warm hand on his back, and then he felt Ray's on the back of his neck, and Katie said, 'Why don't you go get it, Dad?' And they pushed him over the edge and Jimmy saw the black water and the flopping fish rise up to meet him and he knew he was going to drown." (p. 332) Do you think that Jimmy's dream symbolizes something about his relationship with Katie or that it is possibly foreshadowing to us finding out more about their relationship later on in the book? Do you think that Katie being with Ray Harris in the dream reveals that was very hurt when he discovered that Katie was dating Brendan? 2. At this point in the book, Dave seems unable to escape from his past and what happened to him when he was eleven year olds. Even though he wants to try to start a new life, do you think he'll be able to? Do you think that Celeste will come back to him once she hears that he didn't kill Katie or do you think she'll still be scared of him?